(21-11-2018 02:01 )Jack the Nipper Wrote: [ -> ]What does grind my gears a bit is the assumption Leavers have changed their minds but no Remain voter hasn't changed theirs
Of course there will be cases of Remain voters in 2016 now being Leavers -- I even know a couple.
But, on balance, I think they must be outnumbered by Leavers in 2016, now being Remainers. It's just the maths of it all and the way that things have played out over the past two years.
In June 2016, we all knew what life inside the EU was like. We were living it. We had almost perfect information.
What we didn't know was what would happen if we tried to exit -- so we had to rely on the pledges and prognostications of the people that were advocating for it. We were going to be like Norway, like Canada, like Switzerland and all that blather.
But now we have that information. We have a much better idea of what Leaving actually looks like. As it is a lot less rosy than the picture that was painted in 2016, I do assume that fewer people would be in favour of it. In other words, all the information that we've gleaned over the past 2 years has shed much more light on one side of the campaign than the other.
So, yes, I absolutely do believe that the number of
new Remainers is higher than the number of
new Leavers. The question is: have the numbers shifted
enough to make the 'will of the people' something different today than it was in 2016?
For me, the next hypothetical question then, is this :-
If parliament throws out TM's deal (Although I haven't seen the numbers that will vote against it, but I have a sneaking suspicion there is enough to defeat it), and there is a 2nd vote, the country would be split even further by those who would vote no deal or remain but If NO Deal won how many businesses would actually pull business out of UK on March 29 2019, and how many citizens would probably emigrate once they knew the result? My fear a NO DEAL vote win would probably cause a tsunami on a financial scale that this country could probably never recover from and once jobs started disappearing. I would say that in turn could cause a movement of British people on to the EU mainland & right across the globe to live and work and this country would just become a wasteland that was caused by 2 years of a Government's sheer incompetence to listen to it's citizens and acceptance of that 2016 vote of what it's people wanted in the first place.
Even if there is a REMAIN there would still be many people who would still emigrate because they would not be happy, as they would see as their vote in 2016 was a wasted referendum vote either way.
can we remain? will the eu let us as we've triggered article 50. is there the mechanism to cancel it or do we have to leave and reapply?
seriously.
(21-11-2018 09:46 )babelover48 Wrote: [ -> ]My fear a NO DEAL vote win would probably cause a tsunami on a financial scale that this country could probably never recover from and once jobs started disappearing. I would say that in turn could cause a movement of British people on to the EU mainland & right across the globe to live and work and this country would just become a wasteland
Wow
Clearly you need to spend more time in Wetherspoons
(21-11-2018 07:49 )Goodfella3041 Wrote: [ -> ] (21-11-2018 02:01 )Jack the Nipper Wrote: [ -> ]What does grind my gears a bit is the assumption Leavers have changed their minds but no Remain voter hasn't changed theirs
Of course there will be cases of Remain voters in 2016 now being Leavers -- I even know a couple.
But, on balance, I think they must be outnumbered by Leavers in 2016, now being Remainers. It's just the maths of it all and the way that things have played out over the past two years.
In June 2016, we all knew what life inside the EU was like. We were living it. We had almost perfect information.
What we didn't know was what would happen if we tried to exit -- so we had to rely on the pledges and prognostications of the people that were advocating for it. We were going to be like Norway, like Canada, like Switzerland and all that blather.
But now we have that information. We have a much better idea of what Leaving actually looks like. As it is a lot less rosy than the picture that was painted in 2016, I do assume that fewer people would be in favour of it. In other words, all the information that we've gleaned over the past 2 years has shed much more light on one side of the campaign than the other.
So, yes, I absolutely do believe that the number of new Remainers is higher than the number of new Leavers. The question is: have the numbers shifted enough to make the 'will of the people' something different today than it was in 2016?
Believe me Goodfella I'm not trying to be patronizing on your comments as I have always had an acknowledgement & respect on both sides of the debate on whether its Leave or Remain as there are pro & cons on both arguments on various sides of the debate.But the respect erodes when there is a non-acceptance of a democratic vote & a continued call to have another vote & then another vote if that vote doesn't provide the result the way certain people wanted.And so would that lead to a Never-rendum scenario until the Remain vote wins.But on several of your comments above your premise on a Peoples Vote/2nd Ref is based on what you think or believe other people may think or believe (where more are for Remain than Leave)which can be a huge assumption.But as you say whilst people may now be clued up on EU now than they were before (on what exactly) on the 2016 vote but there may still many people who have no inkling about the EU & how it works,or who aren't politically motivated & would possibly still vote emotively on both leave & remain sides.
If God forbid if there is a 2nd Referendum then for me democracy is no longer to be respected & trust in all politician's will be much lower than it will has ever been in what I do fear could lead to the rise of exploitative far-right parties trying to coax disaffected leave voters.From the network of friends,gym & work colleagues I have when Brexit is discussed there are some of those who voted Leave who openly say that if the 2016 vote isn't respected & implemented then they would never vote anything politically again (even in a 2nd ref).Which kind of suggests there could be some sort of voter apathy on a 2nd vote & a much lower turnout.
^given the abhorrent lies we were told and the lack of understanding most people had about the eu and what it's function is, wouldn't a second referendum be the ultimate democratic action?
^ No because Brexiteers don’t believe in Democracy! They stated quite clearly on the night of the referendum when they thought they’d lost that it would not be the end if the matter. Now when people of all persuasions question the deal on offer they want a hard Brexit that nobody voted for rather than trust the public to decide with the benefit of the knowledge we now have.
In other countries they manage to have votes in quick succession for Presidents so to my mind as there is no majority in Parliament for the current deal or a hard Brexit we should have 2 votes. The first one could be “Do you want to exit the EU on the basis of the current deal” If the public say yes then that’s what we do. If the public say no then a couple of weeks later a 2nd referendum is held where the question is “ Do you want a Hard Brexit or to Remain”
I find it ridulous that Brexiteers campaigned on Sovereignty but now as MP’s don’t trust the people who elected them.
(21-11-2018 17:15 )terence Wrote: [ -> ]^given the abhorrent lies we were told and the lack of understanding most people had about the eu and what it's function is, wouldn't a second referendum be the ultimate democratic action?
bolox...you lost lol..get over it remoaners........
are we nearly out yet???
please a no-deal.....fuck the eu
