(30-05-2017 06:21 )HannahsPet Wrote: [ -> ]the idea of a bad deal is where we would be worse off than even if we went to WTO rules basically paying a huge payoff and still having to pay a lot for free trade and customs union and have ECJ having Jurisdiction also the fact if there's a problem then the EU has final say which they have been spouting
going into a negotiation saying we will take anything you give us is a recipe for a big butt fucking by the Europeans 
I voted remain because I saw this would happen and we didn't need it but need to stop whinging and get on with it
Your notion of a bad deal is merely a tautology. The problem is that there is widespread disagreement on what 'worse off' means. To some, 'worse off' means anything that involves a compromising/pooling sovereignty. To others, 'worse off' means anything that involves compromising access to the single market. The Tories will not tell us their idea of 'worse off', so their assertion that 'no deal is better than a bad deal' is meaningless.
The purpose of avoiding talking about walking away is not to suggest that we should accept any deal that is offered, it is to ensure that negotiations take place on a constructive basis. If want you to get the best deal on a used car, you don't swagger into a dealership saying 'listen here, you wanker. I want the best deal, or I'm taking my money somewhere else, because no deal is better than a bad deal'. That approach only works if the salesman is so desperate for your money that they'll sacrifice their dignity to get it. The more likely outcome is that they'll tell you to clear off.
The Tories should spend more time talking about what they
do want, rather than what they don't want. The fact that they won't do that should arouse suspicion in anyone. A cynical person might conclude that they are preparing us for failure, so that, when the UK leaves the EU without a deal, we'll blame the evil EU bureaucrats, instead of the dumbfuckery of the Tories.
It seems everyone has forgotten that it was our last Prime Minister, Theresa and the rest of the CONservative cabinet that has caused this Brexit mayhem. And people still think they are the only ones who can negotiate to leave the EEC with a fair result. Not a cheep from Cameron, about as popular as a turd in the drinking water, even with his own party. If the CONservatives win the election, it will be milk and honey for the top 10% and scraps for the rest of us, again. At least Scotland and Wales can bail out, lucky buggers.
(30-05-2017 12:43 )terence Wrote: [ -> ]the uk hasn't got a negotiating leg to stand on. the eu holds all the cards, there will be no 'good' deal for us. it's an almost incomprehensible task to untangle ourselves from the eu and it's institutions, and is will be going on for years beyond the 2 year deadline. this will prove to be the single biggest financial harm that any people has visited on themselves, bar none.
but at least we can stop the immigrants from taking over, eventually! (you know, by making ourselves as poor as them!) 
Remainers are remainers I suppose.
Do you think the EU would be SOOOO fucked off at the UK leaving if the UK was so insignificant?
As for untanglement, it isn't, the UK can actually keep a lot, if not most, of the current EU laws without any problems, they only need to negotiate problimatical ones.
It could end up the EU owes the UK much more when all the sums are done.
your right about the imigrants though, as soon as they think Britian isn't here just to hand out money to them and other places will be finantially more viable that's were they will be off too (think I heard it's already happening). Instead of going through Turkey, several poor EU countries, past several richer EU countries, that they think don't offer as much, before they feel their lives are finally safe from Syrian bombs, they will suddenly find France and Germany more lucrative, I mean safe.
And you need to reasses your definition of poor, being the 10th poorest country in the world as opposed the 5th is not really poor.
From what I read before the vote, it was estimated that if the EU decided to be ok then the UK would infact be 2% better of GNP out of the EU, if and only if the EU decided to be bastards about it, the the UK would be about 2% worse off than now.
But none of this seems to facter in trade with the rest of the world.
If the EU was so wonderful and so good, there simply would not be any problems with the EU and there has been nothing but problems.
(30-05-2017 19:11 )SOCATOA Wrote: [ -> ]It seems everyone has forgotten that it was our last Prime Minister, Theresa and the rest of the CONservative cabinet that has caused this Brexit mayhem. And people still think they are the only ones who can negotiate to leave the EEC with a fair result. Not a cheep from Cameron, about as popular as a turd in the drinking water, even with his own party. If the CONservatives win the election, it will be milk and honey for the top 10% and scraps for the rest of us, again. At least Scotland and Wales can bail out, lucky buggers.
Mate, I'm I the only one that can remember Labour was so bad and ESPECIALLY the leadership of Corbyn was so unwanted that people were genuinely saying it was probably the end of Labour?
I'm I the only one who can remeber what a complete shambles labour was, it's only a couple of months ago.
I mean there's bias and then there's bias.
Whatever you think of May and the conservatives, if labour got in at this moment in time, it would be nothing but a complete catastrophy for the UK.
Why don't you go and live in wales or Scotland then while you can? If England is so bad, you have had your invite from Strugeon, plenty of room she says.
(30-05-2017 16:41 )marxian Wrote: [ -> ]The Tories will not tell us their idea of 'worse off', so their assertion that 'no deal is better than a bad deal' is meaningless.
The EU have said repeatedly that they want to make it worse for Britian being out of the EU than in.
You can't really negotiate with this, it would be like negotiating with hostage takers or terroist; we want x,y,z or else.
If the EU has no intention of sensibly negotiating whats best for both sides then May simply has no option but to go for the no deal. How the hell can you negotiate with people who right up front are telling you that the aim their side has is to make it as bad as the can for the UK, or at least worse off than you are now?
How that pans out nobody knows, but the UK has more trade with the EU than the EU does with the UK, the EU is not the only supplier of goods.
I notice Corbyn suggested Indyref2 might be a goer. So Thezza suggested he was planning a Labour-SNP coalition.
But any coalition talk would be meaningless unless there was a Hung Parliament. In which case, the first person getting "hung" would be the silly cow who called the bleeding Election for a bigger majority and finished up without one at all!
(30-05-2017 19:11 )SOCATOA Wrote: [ -> ]It seems everyone has forgotten that it was our last Prime Minister, Theresa and the rest of the CONservative cabinet that has caused this Brexit mayhem. And people still think they are the only ones who can negotiate to leave the EEC with a fair result.
If it was still the "EEC" i doubt we'd be leaving.
(30-05-2017 20:26 )Doddle Wrote: [ -> ]I notice Corbyn suggested Indyref2 might be a goer. So Thezza suggested he was planning a Labour-SNP coalition.
But any coalition talk would be meaningless unless there was a Hung Parliament. In which case, the first person getting "hung" would be the silly cow who called the bleeding Election for a bigger majority and finished up without one at all!
We do live in a world that elected Trump as president, so anything is possible, including a complete clusterfuck of a party.
(30-05-2017 20:10 )wackawoo Wrote: [ -> ] (30-05-2017 16:41 )marxian Wrote: [ -> ]The Tories will not tell us their idea of 'worse off', so their assertion that 'no deal is better than a bad deal' is meaningless.
The EU have said repeatedly that they want to make it worse for Britian being out of the EU than in.
You can't really negotiate with this, it would be like negotiating with hostage takers or terroist; we want x,y,z or else.
If the EU has no intention of sensibly negotiating whats best for both sides then May simply has no option but to go for the no deal. How the hell can you negotiate with people who right up front are telling you that the aim their side has is to make it as bad as the can for the UK, or at least worse off than you are now?
How that pans out nobody knows, but the UK has more trade with the EU than the EU does with the UK, the EU is not the only supplier of goods.
I would say that you have misinterpreted the statement from the EU that 'Brexit can't be a success'. It is not a threat, but merely a statement of what they (and anyone that voted Remain) would consider a fact. They are implying that both the UK and the EU will be worse off as a result of Brexit, whatever the outcome of the negotiations. It's the siege mentality of some Leave voters that leads them to interpret the statement as a threat.
(30-05-2017 19:11 )SOCATOA Wrote: [ -> ]It seems everyone has forgotten that it was our last Prime Minister, Theresa and the rest of the CONservative cabinet that has caused this Brexit mayhem. And people still think they are the only ones who can negotiate to leave the EEC with a fair result. Not a cheep from Cameron, about as popular as a turd in the drinking water, even with his own party. If the CONservatives win the election, it will be milk and honey for the top 10% and scraps for the rest of us, again. At least Scotland and Wales can bail out, lucky buggers.
Tory logic:
"We're the ones who were (in)compenent enough to create this mess, so we're the only ones (in)competent enough to sort it out."
Tory General Election campaign, 2022:
"...mess we
created inherited blah blah ...long term economic plan blah blah ...finish the job we started blah blah."