(01-01-2021 21:46 )hornball Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2021 12:37 )lovebabes56 Wrote: [ -> ]Put anything in the hands of Boris & Co, and it will become a cock up!!
I will not be surprised if both Pfizer and Oxford eventually to try and wrest control from the cabinet and the Government, and carry out the vaccination roll out themselves in conjunction with the NHS & the Army as support.
As unlikely as it sounds, you might be on to something! Perhaps the roll out should have been the responsibility of the NHS all along.
And who is in control of the NHS whitehall ie the govt
(01-01-2021 22:39 )The Silent Majority Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2021 21:36 )hornball Wrote: [ -> ]At what point is this govt going to be willing to listen to the scientific/medical experts (still a dirty word apparently post brexit) and simply do as they advise??
As I understand it, it was the scientific experts who advised this. The same ones we were lauding a couple of days ago for approving the vaccines for use.
(01-01-2021 21:36 )hornball Wrote: [ -> ]Any govt/person that diverges from the opinion of those that develop vaccines and those that medically administer them, must take the consequences if more fatalities result. If they make decisions - not with the benefit of hindsight - but with clear evidence in front of them, that does diverge from the 'best practice' advice and instruction of such experts, then someone should see them in court as a govt, in the same way an individual would be - facing manslaughter charges for each and every death attributable directly to their decision.
And what if more deaths occur by giving the two doses close together, but covering half as many people?
Let's be honest, I doubt any of us have the expertise to know whether this is the right thing to do. It does make me very apprehensive that the manufacturers won't back this course of action. But, on the other hand, they will want to have their arses well covered if there was even a small chance of it all going tits up.
All decent points 'silent' I guess further analysis flags up different parameters. I still question how govt or their advisers can come up with a proposed timeline so far removed from the one initially advised by the very scientists who developed the vaccine, and know its characteristics. I hadn't heard that giving the doses closer together, as initially advised, would/could lead to more deaths?? I stand to be corrected!!
The maximum efficacy for each of the approved vaccines is achieved by following the manufacturers recommendations as those have been trialled but and its a big but recipients of the first dose of the vaccine do get a good level of protection before the second vaccine boosts the efficacy level.
the point about spreading the doses out to save lives if therefore best shown by this example
Assume a maximum number of 1 million doses. You could follow the 2nd dose after 3 weeks plan and therefore protect a maximum of 500,000 people. If however you only gave one dose at the outset you could give a high degree of protection to 1 million people. No person in the AZ trial who had a single dose became seriously ill with Covid.
To me the question does remain however of how they will guarantee that people do get the 2nd dose because supply in short. I do see today though AZ are forecasting supplying 2 million doses a week by mid January
Yet more 'making it up as they go along' from our 'experts', they are now suggesting that not only is it permissible to give the two doses of vaccine up to 12 weeks apart (and actually suggests that longer than 12 weeks is OK), but that it is acceptable to mix the two currently approved vaccines, and give one dose of each.
Bear in mind these are different vaccines, produced in different ways, using different components to produce the immunity to the virus, there is absolutely NO clinical evidence suggesting that mixing the two vaccines in this way produces the required immunity.
Government document outling this procedure :
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk...14a_v4.pdf
New York Times article on this :
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/healt...itain.html
My concern as regards the vaccine, is that all this constant changing as to the best method to deliver the programme, with conflicting & confusing information could potentially have an effect on the number of people willing to get vaccinated. The lack of clarity can erode confidence.
(02-01-2021 11:37 )SecretAgent Wrote: [ -> ]The maximum efficacy for each of the approved vaccines is achieved by following the manufacturers recommendations as those have been trialled but and its a big but recipients of the first dose of the vaccine do get a good level of protection before the second vaccine boosts the efficacy level.
its a good point, both are about 75% effective after 1 dose , so both could save a lot of people after only one dose, as covid now seams out of control in the UK i think they have decided it best do cove as many people as fast as possible, i think this needs explaining better though so people dont worry about things so much,
(02-01-2021 11:42 )munch1917 Wrote: [ -> ]Yet more 'making it up as they go along' from our 'experts', they are now suggesting that not only is it permissible to give the two doses of vaccine up to 12 weeks apart (and actually suggests that longer than 12 weeks is OK), but that it is acceptable to mix the two currently approved vaccines, and give one dose of each.
Bear in mind these are different vaccines, produced in different ways, using different components to produce the immunity to the virus, there is absolutely NO clinical evidence suggesting that mixing the two vaccines in this way produces the required immunity.
Government document outling this procedure :
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk...14a_v4.pdf
New York Times article on this :
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/healt...itain.html
As is often the case, a bit of reading disproves a mischevious media article...
Quote:Previous incomplete vaccination
If the course is interrupted or delayed, it should be resumed using the same vaccine but the first dose should not be repeated. There is no evidence on the interchangeability of theCOVID-19 vaccines although studies are underway. Therefore, every effort should be made to determine which vaccine the individual received and to complete with the same vaccine.
For individuals who started the schedule and who attend for vaccination at a site where the same vaccine is not available, or if the first product received is unknown, it is reasonable to offer one dose of the locally available product to complete the schedule. This option is preferred if the individual is likely to be at immediate high risk or is considered unlikely to attend again. In these circumstances, as both the vaccines are based on the spike protein, it is likely the second dose will help to boost the response to the first dose.
For this reason, until additional information becomes available, further doses would not then be required
(02-01-2021 11:42 )munch1917 Wrote: [ -> ]Yet more 'making it up as they go along' from our 'experts', they are now suggesting that not only is it permissible to give the two doses of vaccine up to 12 weeks apart (and actually suggests that longer than 12 weeks is OK), but that it is acceptable to mix the two currently approved vaccines, and give one dose of each.
Bear in mind these are different vaccines, produced in different ways, using different components to produce the immunity to the virus, there is absolutely NO clinical evidence suggesting that mixing the two vaccines in this way produces the required immunity.
Government document outling this procedure :
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk...14a_v4.pdf
New York Times article on this :
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/healt...itain.html
Not an expert, but that seems like a serious risk to me??
They have now said should not mix
I like JVT take on it this morning using the 2 grand parents analogy You want 2 with 89% or 1 with 100% and one with nothing its as simple as that
in normal times this would be a non issue because would take years of studys and research and dosing but we dont have years prob dont have months
what i would like to see is studies showing effectiveness of the vaccines against new strains and whether the developers will be working to combat the new strains.
How many more strains of this virus are likely to be around that the vaccines may not be effective against has to ber something in the back of our minds in the future. I am of the opinion that we will not see this virus suddenly disappear like SARS or bird flu did. I do think this virus is going to around for a lot longer than we probably first thought it will be, and while there is hope with the vaccines we are not out of the woods yet. we still have this strain that spreads much more quickly than it originally did, and I fear there are many more strains waiting to cause havoc in 2021 and we must not let our guard down for one second and hope research will be the new frontline in the future.