Scottish Independence (the sequel)

An unfortunate state of affairs back then, but right now every little helps.

Labour would have been in power but with a different chancellor for the whole of that time and probably Tony Blair would have tried to run for another term in 2007.

(17-09-2014 20:43 )Digital Dave Wrote:  One of the key concerns of the 'no' camp is that Scotland wouldn't have control over their own currency if they adopted the pound. Yet no state in the Eurozone has local control over the Euro as the rate is governed by the European Central Bank. That seems to be a perfectly acceptable political model, so why is Scotland adopting the pound different? This is a genuine question.

I agree with the principle of all that Tumble_Drier wrote in response to this question, but I don't believe that it is necessarily that big a deal.

A government has two basic levers to pull when it comes to managing the economy -- fiscal policy and monetary policy. To be truly independent and in control of your own destiny, you need to control both or at least be a partner in determining how they are managed (i.e. the EU).

That said, I think the short term Scottish issue is about stability and a managed exit out of the UK in the (unlikely) event of a "yes" vote. There is absolutely no reason why Scotland can't go on using the pound for a year or two while it goes through the process of setting up the apparatus of a functioning independent state. Then, when the time is right and all of the hysteria has settled, you swap over to a new currency.

This is what many of the old Soviet Republics did after the breakup of the Soviet Union. They carried on using the Rouble while they put their house in order. Then, one by one and in their own time, they switched currencies. (Several have since switched again by joining the Eurozone.) Worth noting as well that it was always Russia that went bananas whenever a country abandoned the Rouble. There is as much upside as downside to a foreign country using your currency as long as you control the money supply. That's why I am always baffled by the argument that the UK wouldn't 'let' Scotland use the pound.

Other than spite or recrimination or a weird affinity for King Edward I, I can't imagine any scenario in which it is in England's best interest to not help a YES-voting Scotland intent on independence to manage a smooth and staged exit from the pound rather than a fraught and difficult one. Why would we spend billions to bail out Irish property developers and more billions to bail out Greek tax dodgers and then NOT invest a bit of time, money and effort making sure that we DON'T have a basket case on our border?

Bottom line: a 'one way' currency union of the type proposed by Scotland -- where they continue using a currency over which they have no control or influence -- is not an ideal long term solution, but it is plenty effective as a short term solution to prevent any unnecessary financial panic.

[And the queue of people telling me that there will be a panic because there will be a run on the banks, and Standard Life will leave, and Tescos will shut, and the oil will run out, and the Monster will abandon Loch Ness, and Brigadoon will disappear (again!), and etc etc etc starts ... here]

(17-09-2014 22:06 )Regenerated Wrote:  In my opinion undecided voters should vote no because I believe you have to be 100% certain to be able to place a yes vote. How many people, truthfully, can say they are 100% certain that an independent Scotland would work? It would be reckless to gamble the future of both nations and the lives of people in those nations to vote yes when there's been so little, credible statement from the pro independence campaign.

Yes fair point, but let's be honest here, isn't it more of a gamble to leave the future of Scotland in the hands of Westminster, having to endure the torture of Torie MP's deciding on what they think is best for us.

Throughout history men have laid their lives on the line in order to wrestle control back from the English, now no blood will be shed, a simple ballet paper. I personally do not trust politicians based in London making important decisions on our behalf.

Also since the Tory Government has come into power from a personal point of view my wages have not gone up one penny all thanks to Cameron, Clegg and their merry band of con men.

We have a Government and party in charge of the UK that is split right down the middle, Tories defecting to UKIP for example. We have MP's getting fatter by the minute spending huge amounts on luxury items all thanks to the British tax payers. We have the House Of Lords, an unelected quango who sit on their fat arses claiming our taxes.

Great Britain is now commonly referred to as Broken Britain. Better together, we've never been better together and the English know that fact deep down.

Give us our Country back, it's not your's. It belongs to us the Scottish people

It is not just the Scottish people that despise our masters in westminster, wether they be Tory, Lib Dem or Labour,
they put themselves first, the party second and the people a very distant third.

Good luck to you whatever the outcome is tomorrow.

(17-09-2014 22:40 )Scottishbloke Wrote:  Throughout history men have laid their lives on the line in order to wrestle control back from the English, now no blood will be shed, a simple ballet paper.

Well, if you really think that'll help...

(17-09-2014 22:40 )Scottishbloke Wrote:  Also since the Tory Government has come into power from a personal point of view my wages have not gone up one penny all thanks to Cameron, Clegg and their merry band of con men.

I'm no great fan of the Tory party, but in Dave's defense, I don't think that prodigious posting on an Internet forum dedicated to televised tits-and-arse is a sure-fire route to career advancement either...


[Just a joke, Scottishbloke I'm no different!]

(17-09-2014 22:48 )lancealot790 Wrote:  It is not just the Scottish people that despise our masters in westminster, wether they be Tory, Lib Dem or Labour,
they put themselves first, the party second and the people a very distant third.

Good luck to you whatever the outcome is tomorrow.

Exactly - It's a myth that we're better off together, there is fuck all to stay in the union for.

Enough is enough, illegal wars, being America's bitch, housing market a disgrace, rising cost of living, unemployment due to other countries being offered unskilled work which should have went to the British instead.

Westminster makes a profit from Eastern Europeans.

The UK sold its soul a long time ago.

Tomorrow the people of Scotland should vote a resounding Yes to show the rest of the world that we can be a fairer and more prosperous country than our near neighbours

(17-09-2014 22:40 )Scottishbloke Wrote:  

(17-09-2014 22:06 )Regenerated Wrote:  In my opinion undecided voters should vote no because I believe you have to be 100% certain to be able to place a yes vote. How many people, truthfully, can say they are 100% certain that an independent Scotland would work? It would be reckless to gamble the future of both nations and the lives of people in those nations to vote yes when there's been so little, credible statement from the pro independence campaign.

Yes fair point, but let's be honest here, isn't it more of a gamble to leave the future of Scotland in the hands of Westminster, having to endure the torture of Torie MP's deciding on what they think is best for us.

Throughout history men have laid their lives on the line in order to wrestle control back from the English, now no blood will be shed, a simple ballet paper. I personally do not trust politicians based in London making important decisions on our behalf.

Also since the Tory Government has come into power from a personal point of view my wages have not gone up one penny all thanks to Cameron, Clegg and their merry band of con men.

We have a Government and party in charge of the UK that is split right down the middle, Tories defecting to UKIP for example. We have MP's getting fatter by the minute spending huge amounts on luxury items all thanks to the British tax payers. We have the House Of Lords, an unelected quango who sit on their fat arses claiming our taxes.

Great Britain is now commonly referred to as Broken Britain. Better together, we've never been better together and the English know that fact deep down.

Give us our Country back, it's not your's. It belongs to us the Scottish people

For gods sake its not about the English versus the Scottish. Plenty of us love Scotland and admire the Scottish people. You accuse us of being xenophobic yet if anything your prejudice against us seems to be uppermost here. Yes in the past many injustices have been performed against the Scots. Guess what, many atrocities were performed by the invading Scots against the English too. This vote is not about that. Times have changed and the past should be left where it lies.
The English do not tell the UK how it will be governed. The government represents the whole of the UK. It is made up of people from around the nation that is the UK. A fair few who are Scottish.
Cameron himself is from Scottish stock. Osbourne has Scottish connections. Noteable Scots who have been heavily responsible for governing us all are Campbell, Alexander, Gordon Brown and Alastair Darling to name just a few. John Smith leader of the Labour party before Blair was Scottish as was Steele, then leader of the Liberal party.
Switch on the television and all I hear are Scottish accents reporting on the news, telling me where I should invest my imaginary savings or how I should shop at the Co-op.
If the majority of Scotland feels like you do then the vote will be a resounding yes and you can have your independence. I for one will be sorry to see that but if thats the way it is we will each go our own way with all of us being the weaker for it.
Enjoy your freedom Braveheart.

I have no preference, but I've listened to all the arguments and I don't find the economics for an independent Scotland convincing at all. There's too many unknowns, too much wishful thinking and a lot of misleading on the part of the SNP.

All this utopian talk of 'the Scottish people' running Scotland is just painful. Do they not realise that it's the Politicians who run the country, not the people - never has been, sadly never will be - and Politicians aren't interested in fairer societies and the like, it's about power and money, corporations and banks.

I also find it odd the arguments from the Yes supporters about Scottish votes not being represented in Westminster, when this vote looks to be so tight that Scotland could end up with just shy of half it's people being forced to live in an independent country with a government they didn't vote for

The SNP have made promises they can't in any way guarantee, and instead they just throw emotive language at people... which is clearly working.

All that said, how tempting it must be to take that chance to never be ruled by the irremovable, power-hungry, vested interest, elitist cunts in Westminster ever again. I can certainly see the temptation.