Scottish Independence (the sequel)

I'm very much in the 'Just because we can do a thing, doesn't mean we should' camp.

I see no benefit whatsoever in an independent Scotland, for us or for the remainder of the United Kingdom. Inevitably, Wales would most likely follow suit (there is much support) and we would have a little Europe in miniature on a tiny island.

(15-10-2012 18:14 )Scottishbloke Wrote:  There is absolutely no reason why we can't go it alone.

I don't know SB, we are not a large country and have a very small population. The employment rate in Scotland, using the European age definition (15-64), in 2011 was 69.5% *. On the surface that sounds great, but how many of those employers are are companies registered in England? It would be perfectly reasonable if those companies moved their business to England to support their own economy, but a disaster for our workforce.

(15-10-2012 18:14 )Scottishbloke Wrote:  We are a great Country with many resources, arguably more than England.

There are lots of unanswered questions that Eck and his merry crew cannot, or will not answer. Here are some of the ones I am concerned about:

Manufacturing:We have no steel fabrication, coal mining or car manufacturing facilities left, giving us little in the way of an industrial sector to add to our GDP. We have shipyards currently undertaking Royal Navy contracts, but an English MOD/Navy would possibly favour English shipyards in future.

That leads nicely onto...

The military: How would a Scottish Army/Navy/Air Force be funded, assuming we are to have our own? What effect would this have on an English Army, if Scottish soldiers wanted to serve in a Scottish Army? In addition to military actions, the Royal Navy polices our waters, protecting our fishing industry from illegal foreign trawling. Would our own Navy do this in future, or we would pay the English Government for the use of theirs?

(15-10-2012 18:14 )Scottishbloke Wrote:  We invented electricity, the telephone, the television.

We did and those were great achievements in the 19th/20th centuries. With the exception of medicines, I can't think of anything we have done since then that we can capitalise on.

(15-10-2012 18:14 )Scottishbloke Wrote:  Not to mention our rich supply of oil and export of Whisky amongst other things and ofcourse Scotchbread

Whisky manufacturing:
2010 (the last year fully-reported by the SWA) -
* Whisky sales declined by 2% for the third year in a row **.
* Recorded jobs in the industry decreased by 6%.
* Plans for long-term production decreased in 2010 by 29 million litres. There's a good article here you should read.

Oil drilling/refining:
This is going to be the major battleground in a political war between Holyrood and Westminster. There is no clear answer and Scotland will not automatically be the owners of existing rigs, or be entitled to 100% of the oil revenues. It's a murky problem at best and is not an even split along the natural border between Scotland and England. There's another good article here that gives you an idea as to how complicated the oil issue is.

There's other issues as well such as currency, which by all accounts would still be the pound for a few years afterwards anyway. Is it possible to be be politically independent if we use the same currency? Of course we could print our own, but we have no mint and if we did, would a Scottish pound have the same value as an English pound?

There's membership of Europe, which as I understand it is NOT constitutionally protected if we opt out of the Union. If we choose to and are allowed to join, will they allow us the option of retaining the pound or would we need to convert to the Euro? If so, what effect does that have on Scottish trade, given that the entire Eurozone is in financial crisis for the foreseeable future?

Salmond doesn't have the answers to these questions and that scares the shit out of me!

(15-10-2012 18:14 )Scottishbloke Wrote:  Time to end the English rule and stand up and be a nation again

We already have devolution, a Parliament and our own civil laws. We have the best of both worlds where we remain part of the union, but have a degree of self-determination. I personally believe we have more to lose than we have to gain. We had this choice to make decades ago and we said no, but ever since bloody Braveheart we have allowed the SNP to romanticise independence and make it an issue when it really shouldn't be.

* Source: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/07/9077/3
** Source: SWA (Scotch Whisky Association)

Thank you very much for my nomination in
Best Cap or Cap Set Of The Year 2013
for Dannii Harwood Posts 781 & 782

(15-10-2012 21:42 )Shady Wrote:  

(15-10-2012 18:14 )Scottishbloke Wrote:  We invented electricity, the telephone, the television.

We did and those were great achievements in the 19th/20th centuries. With the exception of medicines, I can't think of anything we have done since then that we can capitalise on.

You're forgetting that Teenage Fanclub revived the power-pop tradition practically single-handedly in the early-to-mid 1990s! Time for a Fannies museum! (Great band in all truth; one of the few memorably good things to come out of Scotland in recent times, culturally speaking).

I'm English and to be honest couldn't give a fuck if Scotland obtains independence. I just hope that we won't be expected to pump money into Scotland if things go tits up as we have enough problems keeping Greece afloat and the Poles in employment.

I don't quite understand why people trust Salmond as he strikes me as a bit of a glory hunter. I can see him doing one if the shit hits the fan.

This is going to be fascinating debate over the next two years. It's hard to believe that finally the option of independence is on the table.

I'm a firm supporter of the principle of Scottish independence but what I'd like to see is cold, hard discussion of the economic facts. Now is the time to remove nationalist passion from the debate. Alex Salmond must win the argument using reason and logic.

I think he has a good chance of doing this and I can see Scotland going its own way in 2014.

if scotland became truely independant they would to have their own currency, border contral agency, healthcare, education system etc. the scottish citizens will face massive tax bills to pay for the stuff and lose the free prescriptions, uni, eldery care etc. also either refund the refund the english tax payer bailing out rbs or give up any rights to north sea oil as payment. they would need to apply to part of the eu and have to accept all the things that come part of being in the eu for example the euro because they would not get membership using the uk membership as the eu would only recognise scotland as a new country which would mean scotland being control by germany and merkel.

the scottish government has already tax raising powers but dont use them instead most of their funding is from the barnett formulea, scots get more money per head than the english. also scottish mps in parliament vote of policies which dont affect them thats how labour got most of their policies through (student fees).

the vote is really "do we scots want cameron/next pm or germany to govern us"

i think what will happen is that it will be a no vote, sammond to lose his seat in the next scottish election after the referendum.

has an englishman i dont care as long as we stop funding the scottish government since they have tax powers and scottish mps are not allowed to vote on policies that affect england only (the westlothian question)

If Scotland gain their independence will they have their own Ofcom..

(16-10-2012 08:10 )Charlemagne Wrote:  If Scotland gain their independence will they have their own Ofcom..

I would apply for a job there and destroy them from the inside! Wah ha ha ha ha!!!

Thank you very much for my nomination in
Best Cap or Cap Set Of The Year 2013
for Dannii Harwood Posts 781 & 782

Would things really be better in an independent Scotland, take a look at what Edinburgh have control of at the moment here a couple of things to think about. Health earlier this year a couple of patients allegedly had to have blankets taken to them in hospital. we were promised smaller class sizes in schools that hasn't happened and watch FMQ and tell me you still think independence is a good idea.

I'm rather confused bigguy why you think if Scotland gained independence that somehow we would be dictated to by the likes of Germany. On the subject of Germany, yes Scotland does have a very good friendship with them but that won't have any stance on them dictating policy to us.

We will be a strong enough nation to stand on our own 2 feet. I've had many an argument with many people how I have allways regarded myself as Scottish and not British.

As a Scotsman I was embarrassed to see Andy Murray draped in the Union Jack having to go through the motion of God Save The Queen which contains some anti-Scottish lyrics in it.

I wanted to see him draped in the Saltire with Flower Of Scotland belting out instead.

You will find that many unionist's are allways biased when it comes to their opinions. They are afraid to leave the UK.

I fully respect Shady's point of view, I do however think that it is quite a pessimistic forecast and the type of forecast which many are predicting which is why Alex Salmond has got his work cut out to convince all the doubters otherwise.

I also agree that his arguments should be based more on policy than sentiments and Braveheart romantic dreams of the Scots once more rising as a nation. We need to see a clear goal and assurances that will squash any fears that we currently possess.

I also don't see any need for border control between Scotland and England. There is none for example between Holland and Germany so why should we be any different. Also the company I work for is based in England, I also need assurances that my job is not under thread either if the 2014 vote is to go in the direction of the yes vote.

Britain's money is at present controlled via 'The Bank of England'.

Who would control the flow of money in Scotland if it went down the total independance road?