Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??)

(21-10-2019 11:08 )Bandwagon Wrote:  All the Brexiteers did was put an x in a box, if you have an axe to grind then perhaps it would be better placed with the people who put ballot papers in all of our hands.

As a Brexiteer, I could say an awful lot about how all this has gone down, but I won't and shall try to remain respectful.

Aye I don't think so. There is definitely plenty of blame to be put at the feet of those who put the ballot papers in your hand but you're not getting off the hook that easily. Brexiteers seem to want to live in a world where they are in complete abdication of any responsibility of their actions. Well have I got news for you, your actions have consequences and you should face up to them. Yes there was a lot of spin and bullshit from the leave side but this is the information age, where every fact is available to us in mere seconds at our fingertips and if 15 million people could see through it, so could the other 17 million.

They chose not to in order to reduce immigration and retain a sense of their own national identity (what is English national identity anyway? Dancing round the maypole in some stupid costume and drinking tea & sugar that you stole from the colonies whilst you raped their woman?)

Yes this is a mess but it is your, you were told during the referendum that it would be because we would have 2 yrs to negotiate 10 yrs worth of negotiations what the hell else would it be?

Three-and-a-half years, two extensions going on three, seven defections, 21 deselections, three prime ministers, countless amendments, two prorogations, one Supreme Court judgement and we are sill at square one. And it all started when you put an X in a box

Congratulations

^ I understand where you're coming from mate, but at the same time, at the time of the referendum, we ALL knew exactly what we would be voting for whether we wanted to stay in the EU or not, but collectively as a nation, we didn't know what the process was or what it really entailed at the time.
Both sides were equally to blame with information/bullshit. I mean how much did it cost the Government at the time to put that leaflet through our doors on the remain side? £39m or something?

I would say now three years on, since we gave Parliament the instruction that we wanted to leave, and look at how it is delivering that instruction, and I think now Parliament has completely fudged the instruction. We have had 3 Prime ministers who had tried (and failed) to get any kind of withdrawal agreement through Parliament. For me the buck stops with those MP's. We gave them the clear instruction of what we wanted to do and they have in my view failed to act on it. Every single one of them needs to be deselected from Boris and Corbyn downwards, and we need a parliament where those who reside/debate has a clear conscience of this country's future but they work together as ONE house putting all political allegiances ASIDE to get this done. The Upper Chamber then has to stand aside and allow it through unchallenged and pass into law and to be finally rubberstamped by HM herself.

Yea, we all put an X in a box in the beginning but it is how it s being handled and delivered that is the problem. We should be telling those who represent us when they knock on our doors that whatever the cost they need to stop acting like spoilt kids and think of the future generations who will have to live with this decision when we are no longer here and do the right thing by our original vote.

^no, all of it. nope.

It would take too long to correct all of Babelovers post for the factual inaccuracies which are so typical of many brexiteers.

I reluctantly would now vote in favour of the latest negotiated deal BUT only if it is allowed full debate for such an important piece of legislation and that an amendment is made that this deal is put to a confirmatory referendum where the other option is remain in the EU.

I still fail to see why brexiteers feel it is in this country’s interests to voluntary condemn generations to be worse off than they would have been but if that is what the people want then have them confirm it. The government has refused to publish financial assessments of this deal which is smells wrong and they are trying to ram it through without critical analysis which in experience leads to bad law.

A technical extension to allow proper debate seems to me to be the best way forward followed by a referendum on the deal with the benefit of detailed disclosure to the public of the implications.

If people think that it will be over if Boris's Ballsup Bill gets past are mistaken.
It's just the end of part1 of the discussions. We still have years of negotiations with the rest of the EU. And then with every other country that we want to trade with.

And don't get me started on trading with the US. We could end up being the 51st state.

I've seen this debate (Leave vs Remain) unfold countless times across different social media platforms.
Therefore, I can assure you this will only lead one way and that is no where.
For every valid point made, there is an equally valid counter and response.
I won't change anyone's view in here and nor would I like to.
So, I won't waste my time on a long winded post that will achieve absolutely sweet fuck all.

I knew it was a gamble poking my head above the parapet in here which has largely turned into a Remainer's thread.
I wonder how many other Leave voters dare not utter a single word in here?

Hilary benn and Caroline lucas already found a trapdoor clause 30 in the legislation that if the goverment dont ask for an extension of the Implementation phase in dec 2020 then we crash out with no trade deal and negoiations end

(22-10-2019 10:21 )HannahsPet Wrote:  Hilary benn and Caroline lucas already found a trapdoor clause 30 in the legislation that if the goverment dont ask for an extension of the Implementation phase in dec 2020 then we crash out with no trade deal and negoiations end

I imagine that trapdoor won't be open for very long for exploitation

(22-10-2019 09:17 )Charlemagne Wrote:  If people think that it will be over if Boris's Ballsup Bill gets past are mistaken.
It's just the end of part1 of the discussions. We still have years of negotiations with the rest of the EU. And then with every other country that we want to trade with.

And don't get me started on trading with the US. We could end up being the 51st state.

We should get deals done with the rest of Europe and th world swiftly first, before any deal with the US.

(22-10-2019 09:11 )SecretAgent Wrote:  It would take too long to correct all of Babelovers post for the factual inaccuracies which are so typical of many brexiteers.

I reluctantly would now vote in favour of the latest negotiated deal BUT only if it is allowed full debate for such an important piece of legislation and that an amendment is made that this deal is put to a confirmatory referendum where the other option is remain in the EU.

I still fail to see why brexiteers feel it is in this country’s interests to voluntary condemn generations to be worse off than they would have been but if that is what the people want then have them confirm it. The government has refused to publish financial assessments of this deal which is smells wrong and they are trying to ram it through without critical analysis which in experience leads to bad law.

A technical extension to allow proper debate seems to me to be the best way forward followed by a referendum on the deal with the benefit of detailed disclosure to the public of the implications.

I believe Boris still won't have the numbers to get it through. Corbyn now has to stand up and force that no confidence vote before Boris
does it himself. If Boris wants to get that deal through parliament he has to call a GE and gain a strong enough working majority to get it done. As it stands he's pretty much out on a limb with it.
I am pretty sure details of the deal were revealed to Parliament late last night.

Bercow refuses to allow another vote on Boris' deal