Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??)

(27-06-2016 20:53 )SecretAgent Wrote:  Well although some people go for the cheap shot about ratings agencies the fact is that a determinant of the price the Government has to pay to borrow is the credit rating. S&P were the only ones to maintain a AAA rating for us but the implications are that it will cost the Govt. more to service our borrowing.

Mock if you like but some of the fictitious £350m a week has just probably gone to pay for increased borrowing costs.

One of my american friends on CNBC was saying how stupid the British Government was, stating they didn't make it clear that to save 8 billion it would cost 100,000,0000, this is the short term though, raise taxes across the board I can see were the government can rasie another 30% tax per week and the individual person would still be ok, government want to stop trying to be popular by keeping taxes unecasserily low, poeple earning over £150,000 a year only get charged 45%? raise it to 55% and let them slump it on around a net income of 60 grand a year.

See its all your leavers fault we are out of the footie !!!

If some of the rumours are true, about over a million leave voters now regretting their decision; could it be plausible that any of the political party leaders running in the next general election (should there be one soon) having the nuts to sell themselves by claiming to ignore the referendum result and not trigger article 50?

(27-06-2016 22:51 )Bandwagon Wrote:  If some of the rumours are true, about over a million leave voters now regretting their decision; could it be plausible that any of the political party leaders running in the next general election (should there be one soon) having the nuts to sell themselves by claiming to ignore the referendum result and not trigger article 50?

yep...and iceland just said we can play france instead of them

But if they truely believe this is such a bad move, its a clever tactic of holding a second referendum disguised as a general election.
I'm not saying I agree with that, I'm trying to forecast those crafty bastard's next move?
Especially if the other rumours are true, that neither side expected this result.
All speculation, but any party leader making such a claim would have the full Scottish support, all the original remain camp plus any shit frightened non-voting wavers & any u-turners?

(27-06-2016 02:08 )wackawoo Wrote:  I was more interested in why people are so desperate, apparenlty Boris also, to keep the single market, clearly if that's the case you are better off in the EU than out, you can't have your cake and eat it. But other countries of the would are not in the single market, yes i know it's Britians biggest market, but equally we IMPORT FAR MORE from the EU than export to them, the UK market is huge.

But this main question is answered by your initial one surely.

I thought you were implying before that the USA and the rest, whilst not part of the EU, can, and want, to deal with the EU's single market. So, 'everyone' and Boris are so keen to stay with the single market for the same reasons the USA and the rest are keen to trade with it... It's a bloody good thing! It simplifies and enhances imports and exports all round. (Being part of the single market or having a very similar deal with it that those that are in it have makes very little difference.) They and Boris, post-article 50, would like a good deal with it. Why have you got such a downer on the single market wackawoo?

Presumably, given his words today, Boris primarily wanted out of Europe for reasons other than trade or immigration. (Even if we are going to be kind and ignore self-advancement!) [You'd have thought he would have told us his motives earlier than this but he, along with seemingly everyone else in this campaign, was too busy spreading disinformation and hyperbole to care for dispensing such truths. ]

On top of that, Boris knows, and has no doubt had it drummed into him by party officials, how divisive this campaign has been. He knows that for his own political survival he has to appeal to more than just the 17 million people who voted out on Thursday. Note how he uses the small margin of victory to justify conciliation. When was the last time you saw a politician refer to the limited margin of victory as a reason for anything?! There is a desperate note for appeasement in that.

For me, his backing Leave was always a bold gamble at the top job and now he is being forced into attempting to placate everyone, looking to save his career. As you have said though, he may well end up pleasing no-one and disillusioning all those who supported him till now believing his rhetoric.

Anyway Boris knows he has to heal wounds in his own party, the markets and the country at large.

The easiest way to do this is, of course, to try and take the easiest, most middle ground, path available at this point. (It also happens to be perhaps the path of least workload for everyone around parliament and the civil service aghast at what lies before them now.) Under the circumstances, it makes sense for him to try and stick to the basic tenenants of what we had previously atm, whilst still fullfilling the mandate of the ballot paper. If he can ride out this rough patch he can get bolder later.

(27-06-2016 02:08 )wackawoo Wrote:  The rest of the EU aren't going to say, well now you are out, you can do what ever you want and of course you can have access to the single market.

Funny that, you are now arguing with the same lines that those that opposed your pre-vote leave arguments had previously flung at you!

Why would the EU give us such a good deal now? Well I suppose Boris is banking on the fact that the EU want this sorted as soon as poss for their own political reasons (those that other posters have already mentioned here). They may not want to be seen to give us great privileges but they might just prefer to get us out of their headlines as quickly as possible if they can spin the outcome favourably somehow (highlighting concessions that we make in other areas perhaps).

(27-06-2016 23:11 )ShandyHand Wrote:  I thought you were implying before that the USA and the rest, whilst not part of the EU, can, and want, to deal with the EU's single market. So, 'everyone' and Boris are so keen to stay with the single market for the same reasons the USA and the rest are keen to trade with it... It's a bloody good thing! It simplifies and enhances imports and exports all round. (Being part of the single market or having a very similar deal with it that those that are in it have makes very little difference.) They and Boris, post-article 50, would like a good deal with it. Why have you got such a downer on the single market wackawoo?

Yes, trade WITH but NOT a part of, so do a lot of the world and so could the UK. There's only 27 countries in it, if it's perfectly viable for the rest of the world to trade outside of the single market, I see no reason why the UK can't, this was one of my main queries.

Quote:Presumably, given his words today, Boris primarily wanted out of Europe for reasons other than trade or immigration. (Even if we are going to be kind and ignore self-advancement!) [You'd have thought he would have told us his motives earlier than this but he, along with seemingly everyone else in this campaign, was too busy spreading disinformation and hyperbole to care for dispensing such truths.

Yup, it seems, but a lot of the issues raise were what people thought anyway, they just played on it.

Quote: Note how he uses the small margin of victory to justify conciliation. When was the last time you saw a politician refer to the limited margin of victory as a reason for anything?! There is a desperate note for appeasement in that.

1 million isn't small, it's 1 in 46 voting public.

Quote:For me, his backing Leave was always a bold gamble at the top job and now he is being forced into attempting to placate everyone, looking to save his career. As you have said though, he may well end up pleasing no-one and disillusioning all those who supported him till now believing his rhetoric.

Honestly, his comments over that past few days have ended his career, may be this was deliberate so he wont get voted to lead.

Quote:Funny that, you are now arguing with the same lines that those that opposed your pre-vote leave arguments had previously flung at you!

It wasn't mine, I said leaving is a mute point because nobody knows, it's the benefits of being in I was inetersted in, unfortunately that wasn't clear either, just full of hogwash and scarmongering, so I didn't vote.

Quote:Why would the EU give us such a good deal now?

Becasue the Uk is still one of the richest and most powerful countries in the world with a permanent seat on NATO, in addition, the UK imports MUCH more from the EU than it exports, so the UK was one of the biggest contributers finantial and by trade to the EU, making it difficult for the UK will put them under more strain on the remaing EU members, they would have to find the short fall that's not coming from the UK AND lose all that income from UK trade on top, that would be a foolish move, and all to punish the UK and make a deterant? No, that's why the rest of the EU were so desperate to keep the Uk and why they are so pissed off we 'left' and probably explains some Germans comments that the dont HAVE to be too hasrh on the UK.

Boris Johnson's article today in the Telegraph says the following:
"It is said that those who voted leave were mainly driven by anxieties about immigration. I do not believe that is so. British people will still be able to go and work in the EU, to live, to travel, to study, to buy homes and to settle down." Sounds like the language of a U -turn
He's going to sign up to the single market and accept free movement of people. It will be a betrayal on a par with tuition fees and sink the Tories.
Labour are crumbling in a civil war and the Lib Dems have been nearly wiped out.
IF all this happens it COULD create a political vacuum as strong as a patriotic British Dyson......Made in Malaysia

(27-06-2016 22:51 )Bandwagon Wrote:  could it be plausible that any of the political party leaders running in the next general election (should there be one soon) having the nuts to sell themselves by claiming to ignore the referendum result and not trigger article 50?

Yes, the Liberal Democrats have already announced that they will fight the next general election (whenever it is) on a manifesto pledge to cancel or reverse the Brexit and maintain the UK's membership of the EU.

(27-06-2016 22:51 )Bandwagon Wrote:  If some of the rumours are true, about over a million leave voters now regretting their decision;

How could you possibly know this, or anybody?