People's Vote

One of the ERG members was telling Ken Clarke earlier that because East Midlands voters backed Brexit Clarke should support their wishes. Clarke responded that on that logic if a Labour won a General Election he would have to support Labour. Funny how Brexiteers don’t understand that we elect named MP’s and they are free to vote how they wish.

(14-03-2019 17:33 )Jack the Nipper Wrote:  TM's Deal (which we are told was the best deal available by the EU).

It's the best available within the negotiating lines laid down by Theresa May. They didn't say it was the best available deal if they were negotiating with someone else.

Sarah Woolaston's amendment that called for an Extension to Article 50 for a 2nd Referendum was defeated by 334 - 85 votes to the dismay of the Independent Group with abstentions by most of the Labour party & a few Tories (Ken Clarke etc).If the 334 majority are unified on objecting a 2nd Referendum it will never pass the House whenever it's put back to the House.

(14-03-2019 17:50 )SecretAgent Wrote:  One of the ERG members was telling Ken Clarke earlier that because East Midlands voters backed Brexit Clarke should support their wishes. Clarke responded that on that logic if a Labour won a General Election he would have to support Labour. Funny how Brexiteers don’t understand that we elect named MP’s and they are free to vote how they wish.

it was that gobshite bridgen who said we were all entititled to irish passports

(14-03-2019 08:40 )The Silent Majority Wrote:  ^ We are leaving. The debate has moved on to how we leave. See if you can get your fucking head round that.
You don't give a fuck about the future of this country. You're just another spoilt brexiteer kid throwing a strop in the supermarket because he can't get his sweeties before the checkout.

I personally know people who voted leave on the expectation of a deal, because they believed the leave campaign promises that one would be available. So don't come here with your arrogant bullshit, claiming to speak for every one of the 17-odd million people who voted leave, when you clearly fucking don't.

If you are certain we are leaving then you are even more crazed and deluded than I thought. Hundreds of MPs (most of them too gutless to admit it) including the "independent" speaker, and also the civil service, the BBC, the quangocracy, the fat cats of the CBI etc are all desperate to reverse Brexit and if they smell a chance they will jump at it.

You claim to personally know people who voted leave but only because they were promised a deal? So what. What about all the people who voted to stay because of the lies pedalled by the Remain campaign. You remember those don't you? The Project Fear predictions that in the event of a vote to leave that unemployment would rise by 500,000-800,000 (actually fell by 300,000), that GDP would fall by 3-6% (actually rose by 3.2%), average real wages to fall by 3-4% (actually rose by 1%). For every one of your leave campaign lies I can give you a remainer one with an actual figure attached.

I might be an arrogant bullshitter but I never claimed to speak for the entire brexitverse. However you might be intersted to see the result of the poll last weekend which asked "should the UK leave with no deal if there are no more concessions from the EU?" The result was Agree-44%, disagree-30%. See if you can get your spoilt confused remainer brain around that.

Oh and by the way as you're a remainer perhaps for the sake of accuracy you should change your name to "The Noisy Minority"

Im getting sick and tired of hearing about this shit now so they just need to pull us out and stop faffing about. No deal, just out. As originally suggested.
" let's get divorced but still meet up on a Wednesday afternoon for coffee, and perhaps a quick handjob on a Friday morning"

We got into this mess because politicians and pundits alike have lied to the people about what our democracy is, it's not a direct democracy where MPs are to enact the exact wishes of the electorate because you can't determine what that is. Voters are not monoliths, just because they back a certain party does not mean that they back all the same policies, Brexit has certainly shown us that. So would it just be down to the manifestos ? That sounds good but because we have so many parties and a first past the post voting system most of our MPs are elected with less than 50% of the vote in fact since 1900 only two out of 31 general elections have elected a government with more than 50% of the vote (The Marquis of Salisbury 1900 and Stanley Baldwin 1931), so what we basically always have had is Governments which the majority of the public did not vote for, enacting policies from manifestos which the majority of the public did not vote for and those policies being either passed or denied by MPs which the majority of constituents did not vote for. So for direct democracy advocates who think MPs are there to carry out the voters wishes to the letter, there is just one flaw in your argument. It's total bullshit.

This has translated into the referendum, even though roughly 6 out of 10 Labour constituencies voted to leave, most Labour voters voted to remain because we have first past the post system those Labour Remain MPs do not need to concern themselves with the wishes of the majority of their constituents, all they need to worry about is the view of the plurality that elected them in the first place. That is why a leaked report by the TSSA Union has shown that by not opposing Brexit, Labour could stand to lose 45 seats. Those Leave voters who anticipate a reckoning for Remain MPs in Leave seats might not want to go counting their chickens before they hatch because First Past Post is a wheel that grinds everything in it's path. It didn't happen in 2017 and everyone knew where they stood on Brexit then, why would it do so now?

I've said it before, whether we leave the EU was never the important question, how we leave the EU is but there was zero prep put into that and so if there is no willing to put how we leave to the people via a second referendum all that is left is Parliament. MPs are completely within their right to vote how the chose, that is their obligation in a representative democracy. They are completely within their right to vote against Government policy derived from manifestoes at GE's even though that government might have received the most votes and so they are completely within their right to vote against aspects of a non legally binding advisory referendum even though it received the most votes.

People think that this Parliament is a disgrace and unrepresentative of the public's view on Brexit. Well let's see, a third of the British population voted for Brexit. Polling has shown that about a third of those asked support May's Deal, a third support No Deal and a third don't know. The people bicker and insult each other on forums and in social media comments sections but above all no general consensus is reached.

About a third of MPs supported Leave in the referendum. Some of them back May's deal, some of them back No Deal and some support either a third fantasy deal i.e Labour Corbynistas or remaining altogether. The MPs bicker and plot to hold votes of no confidence either internally within their party or externally through Parliament and they make speeches in the House chastising each others views but above all no general consensus is reached.

How we get out of this who knows? Personally I want Parliament to do its job as representatives and revoke Article 50, what I think will happen is that the with the threat of No Brexit on the table enough ERG members will cave and we will leave under May's deal.

The one thing I do know is this, that the real ugly truth is, we have exactly the Parliament we deserve.

(15-03-2019 04:06 )Dan Volatile Wrote:  ... you might be intersted to see the result of the poll last weekend which asked "should the UK leave with no deal if there are no more concessions from the EU?" The result was Agree-44%, disagree-30%. See if you can get your spoilt confused remainer brain around that.

What you mean the fact that 56% weren't in favour of the idea? Just saying...

(15-03-2019 20:27 )ShandyHand Wrote:  

(15-03-2019 04:06 )Dan Volatile Wrote:  ... you might be intersted to see the result of the poll last weekend which asked "should the UK leave with no deal if there are no more concessions from the EU?" The result was Agree-44%, disagree-30%. See if you can get your spoilt confused remainer brain around that.

What you mean the fact that 56% weren't in favour of the idea? Just saying...

That's right, or you could look at this way:
30% thought that we shouldn't leave without a deal while 70% didn't agree with that.

Also just sayin'...

You suffer from the same delusion as alot of other brexiteers. You won one vote, on one question, and now you think the country belongs to you. The only question on the ballot paper was whether to leave the EU, nothing else. And I think there's zero chance of that not happening now. But hey, you cling on tight to those conspiracy theories if it helps keep your insecurities warm at night.
Having established, by vote, that we are leaving, you (the brexiteers) do not get to dictate how Brexit proceeds. Every citizen of this country has an equal stake in what happens next. 16 million people did not become second class citizens the day after the referendum. Much as you'd like everyone who doesn't share your view of Brexit to shut up and piss off, it's not going to happen. So get fucking used to it.
The fact that Parliament is making a complete arse of the job is bye the bye.

(15-03-2019 04:06 )Dan Volatile Wrote:  However you might be intersted to see the result of the poll last weekend which asked "should the UK leave with no deal if there are no more concessions from the EU?" The result was Agree-44%, disagree-30%. See if you can get your spoilt confused remainer brain around that.

Fine. Let's have the vote and convert that into a mandate. If no-deal carries it than we leave without a deal. I have no problem with that whatsoever.
And don't bother trotting out that same tired old crap about not re-running the referendum. If there's no option to remain then it's not a re-run. We'd be out whatever the result, and probably a sight quicker than with the current process.
But it doesn't really matter, does it. We both know that, even with nothing to lose, your brexiteer sense of entitlement and those little insecurity demons buzzing round in your head will never let you agree to that.

(15-03-2019 04:06 )Dan Volatile Wrote:  Oh and by the way as you're a remainer perhaps for the sake of accuracy you should change your name to "The Noisy Minority"

Oh gosh. A 'clever' pop at my username. That's never happened before