Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??)

(08-10-2019 19:22 )SecretAgent Wrote:  Well I did quote what you said! You know I actually met Gorbachev briefly many years ago. Hugely impressive man

Totally your business Secret, but that is mighty impressive - although not celebrity driven - M Gorbachev is one of those world leaders I would have considered it a privilege to meet, what were the circumstances that enabled you to do so?? - if you can say!

(08-10-2019 22:44 )Goodfella3041 Wrote:  

(08-10-2019 19:04 )hornball Wrote:  I may not be met with a kind response here, but I believe Putin too has had his actions, and/or public announcements misjudged! I think his intention is not a 'takeover', but instead to show to - not least a proud domestic audience - his strength as a leader, and determination not to be pushed around by the west (specifically USA) as an individual, and in terms of Russia as a whole!

I think I suggested something similar in an earlier post or a different thread.

I personally think there is something in the collective Russian psyche that makes them feel perpetually threatened and under siege and that therefore requires a strong leader to 'save' them from some perceived threat.

Gorbachev saved us from the Soviets. Yeltsin saved us from the Communists. Putin saved us from the Capitalists.

With the oligarchs essentially 'tamed' through a tacit agreement that Putin stays out of their business if they stay out of his politics, he needed another threat to confront and therefore retain his position as the country's savior. That threat has turned out to be the West, which is portrayed as an alliance of countries that want to prevent Russia from taking its rightful place among the great powers.

His efforts to destabilize western democracies by creating discord and sowing chaos is not so much about 'world domination' in Bond-villain sort of way. It is more about impressing on his own people that the grass is no greener on the other side and that they should be happy with the system they've got.

Just another crackpot theory, mind you...

Couldn't agree more with that!! I think you could actually be describing, in many ways, the USA itself. Yes it has been attacked in the most profound way (SEPT 11th) which shook them to the core, and drove a coach and horses through their self created 'air of invincibility' so has a right to feel a certain level of insecurity - indeed paranoia! This goes deeper though, and historically, much further back than that particular time! I see the USA, and it's sense of itself, as being built on being able to stand up to an enemy. If it isn't faced with an actual threat, it somehow feels the need to 'create one'!! There is one presenter on CNN - many will have heard the name - called Smirconish! It is only a soundbite - I accept - but the trailer for his show is one where he says 'quote' ''What happened to when we were united against a common enemy! Personally I think that speaks volumes! It speaks to, both the fractures within USA society, and what has historically united them!!

Nothing could ever justify sept 11th, but I will never forget a comment picked up on tv, and relayed during one of the many documentaries made of that day's events from actual footage, from a U.S citizen when they said ''This is what happens when we 'interfere around the world' ''
I thought to myself, 'he gets it' Particularly when that interference/intervention is not even handed, or is simply nakedly self serving'

The most recent test of this - ''don't do as we do - do as we say'' mentality, is around the case of the road traffic accident involving an American diplomats' wife! Would the USA 'go quietly' had a Briton been involved in a similar accident in the USA, and left the country?? I will leave that one with you!

Farage up to his normal antics again : -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSOUsfl_CVA It is towards the end where you will hear the "Patronising snob" bit

Ineresting

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/o...1570724861

^ Thankfully it still passed (easily according to the article), despite the pointless party pulling their stunt.

Sounds like boris is caving in a lot to get a deal done thinks he has finally realised No deal is off the table and if he doesnt want to be the worst PM in history he will have to cave

Or..... he will be the worst PM if he does cave?
Depends on your stance really.

Damned if he does...damned if he doesn't I'd say.

Brexiteers will have to lump it or leave it if they want to leave

Going into tunnel negotiations signs are looking good for a deal never thought would be saying that last week