Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??)

came back from pub and found a vote leave flyer on my doormat!!

Anyone else get one?

(05-06-2016 15:21 )misterG Wrote:  I applaud John Majors comments announcing the exit campaign was "deceitful, untrue, depressing, awful and verging on the squalid" -
Headline - Boris Johnson & Michael Gove are liars that can't be trusted - like we didn't already know!

But in the interests of honesty and fairness he should also have said the stay campaign is "deceitful, untrue, depressing, awful and verging on the squalid" and that Cameron & Osborne are liars that can't be trusted either - like we don't already know that too.

But the bit that was omitted was that these comments were made by the Prime Minister who signed the Maastricht Treaty - An act that if done at any time in British history except in the last 60 years would have seen him hanged for treason.

And he only signed it after he'd persuaded them to remove all mention of the phrase 'Federal Europe' because he knew the truth wouldn't be acceptable to the British People - so that makes John Major "deceitful, untrue, depressing, awful and verging on the squalid" too, just like the rest of them.

And I think it is more Federal Europe now than when Major signed that bloody treaty!!

(05-06-2016 18:17 )babelover48 Wrote:  And I think it is more Federal Europe now than when Major signed that bloody treaty!!

It is. Thats what it was designed to do.

What we joined was the Common Market - a group of independent European nations working together to form a common trading unit, trading between ourselves and to compete with the global giants (USA).

The Maastricht Treaty changed the Common Market into the European Union with a clear roadmap to create an integrated and unified Europe - a European Super State - ruled by a commission in Brussels that isn't elected or answerable to anyone - inc the European Parliament, and which will take over every aspect of government.

Thats what Major signed up to while hiding the truth from the British electorate and now 24 years later we eventually have a chance to have our say.

Do you want to be British or European? Hold a British passport or a European one? British laws or European? the pound or the euro? etc etc

Voting out doesn't mean we can't trade, cooperate or work together with Europe, but it gives us self-determination over our future and independence from the mandarins in Brussels.

This isn't a question about will I be better off tomorrow or how it might impact trade or immigration or any of the things the tory infighting is about - it's about whether your children and grandchildren will live in an independent country.

Goodness, a voice of reason and logic.

(05-06-2016 20:02 )misterG Wrote:  What we joined was the Common Market - a group of independent European nations working together to form a common trading unit, trading between ourselves and to compete with the global giants (USA).

The Maastricht Treaty changed the Common Market into the European Union with a clear roadmap to create an integrated and unified Europe - a European Super State - ruled by a commission in Brussels that isn't elected or answerable to anyone - inc the European Parliament, and which will take over every aspect of government.

Thats what Major signed up to while hiding the truth from the British electorate and now 24 years later we eventually have a chance to have our say.

Why we weren't allowed to vote on that treaty 24 years ago is beyond me...

(05-06-2016 22:11 )babelover48 Wrote:  Why we weren't allowed to vote on that treaty 24 years ago is beyond me...

well the answer to that is because they knew we'd vote against it...

the only reason they're doing it now is because there's a whole generation who've grown up as part of the EEC that they think will vote to stay because they don't know any different and don't understand the importance - that's why they're so desperate for the 'youth vote'.

What I don't understand is why successive governments of both persuasions (Gordon Brown did the same as Major when he signed the Treaty of Lisbon) have been so happy to concede sovereignty while knowing what the eventual outcome will be?
Westminster will become a complete irrelevance (I know, it already is to most people who aren't from an Eton/Oxbridge background) but I think already something like 70% of UK legislation is given to us from Brussels.

I understand that party politics is all about self-interest and nothing to do with 'the good of the country' or doing what's right, but I don't see how anyone stands to gain by being a (small but comparatively wealthy) state under the governance of the US of Europe unless a) to hide the mess they've made of running the country and delay the payback of debt or b) their own personal enrichment - probably both & we'll pay the price both ways.

(22-05-2016 16:47 )wackawoo Wrote:  

(22-05-2016 08:56 )The Silent Majority Wrote:  It's interesting to see that, despite alot of influential people like wackawoo coming out for Leave, this poll stubbornly remains at around the same split as it was at the start.

I really don't think I have ever been influential on this site

What my personal conclusions about it all, having read the detail, has nothing whatsoever to do with anybody else's vote.

Sorry. Clearly my sarcasm was too subtle

(06-06-2016 01:36 )The Silent Majority Wrote:  Sorry. Clearly my sarcasm was too subtle

What exactly is subtle about it?

Obviously my ironic answer flew right over your head, you'd have thought the little laughy man would be a clue

(05-06-2016 22:11 )babelover48 Wrote:  

(05-06-2016 20:02 )misterG Wrote:  The Maastricht Treaty changed the Common Market into the European Union with a clear roadmap to create an integrated and unified Europe - a European Super State - ruled by a commission in Brussels that isn't elected or answerable to anyone - inc the European Parliament, and which will take over every aspect of government.

Thats what Major signed up to while hiding the truth from the British electorate and now 24 years later we eventually have a chance to have our say.

Why we weren't allowed to vote on that treaty 24 years ago is beyond me...

What do you suppose the 1992 General Election was, if not a vote on the party who signed up to the Maastricht Treaty?

See also the 1970 General Election, where people voted for a party who would sign up to the EEC in the first place.

OK but they Still won...