Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??)

I think the Govt now has to realise that to get the Bill through and approved in three days was probably ambitious and I think there is very little in the grand schemes of thing to get anything set in stone before 31st October. The ball is now for the time being, during the next 24 hours, is in the EU's court. I can't see them say 'JA' to one more extension, even it was to extend to say end of November, which although is ample time in my view to scrutinise the deal, but the Letwin Amendment does however state we cannot leave without a deal.
I think it has been bully boy tactics by the PM, and the Goverment in trying to ram this through is such a short space of time, this has ended up almost spectacularly backfiring. I would necessarily think it all comes down to what the EU says between now and tomorrow morning. And whatever the whips decide it probably does not fit in with the Government's current timetable.
What does Boris do now? I don't think there is very little room left for him to manoeuvre if the EU rejects any extension request.

(22-10-2019 20:42 )Stemmw Wrote:  The Conservatives (+DUP) had a majority and couldn't even get a slightly less bad deal over the line so to lay the stalling and delay at remain MPs is and bit disingenuous

Yes I'm fully aware of how all the voting has gone down throughout the whole process, and of course you and southsidestu are correct.
But when I said stalling, I was referring to a more frequent occurrence.

But it has to be said, that comment did receive a rather interesting response.
And that's interesting because I didn't see any other response to this:

(21-10-2019 23:26 )southsidestu Wrote:  Three-and-a-half years, two extensions going on three, seven defections, 21 deselections, three prime ministers, countless amendments, two prorogations, one Supreme Court judgement and we are sill at square one. And it all started when you put an X in a box

Since you're here, perhaps you'd like to comment on this paragraph also?

Well, it looks like we are into endgame now. I don't hold much hope for a second referendum or a customs union amendment working. The best the 'rebels' can probably achieve is to close down the Article 30 'trapdoor'. (If Government throw their toys out of the pram over that, then we'll know that No Deal was their objective all along.)

As resigned as I am to this fate, it does kind of bug me that Johnson and his cronies have controlled the narrative to the point that everyone blithely accepts the idea that we are all too 'fatigued' to do things properly and thoughtfully. And I don't think it's a leave or remain issue. Haste and unnecessary urgency is no basis for decision-making.

The number of times I've heard people say something to the effect that they don't even care anymore, as long as it's over ... it's maddening. It's childish. This is the biggest decision that the Government is going to take -- in my name -- in my lifetime. It should take as long as it takes.

Sadly, the whole "just get it done" sloganeering appears to have worked. Repeat it enough times and it just becomes The Truth. It's the Trumpian / Johnsonian world we live in.

(22-10-2019 22:47 )Goodfella3041 Wrote:  Haste and unnecessary urgency is no basis for decision-making.

Thing is, there was no need for this. If Boris had started negotiating his deal as soon as he became PM there would have been plenty of time to put it through Parliament in the proper manner.

He wasted 2 months thinking he could just bullshit and run down the clock to no-deal. It wasn't until Parliament put a gun to his head that he started doing what he should have been doing from the start.

Is there every chance that the Lords will kill it stone dead at the first opportunity? If that happens, I would say we would be back to square one.
The proroguation of Parliament was also valuable time lost IMO. Had he not done that, he could have got the bill through well before the deadline. I think he should have come up with this as an alternative to May's plan while the house was voting on it. I think he could likely use the GE as an excuse to get the approval of the plan with the public at large.

The EU has to come up with a sensible extension time, & I think if they agreed to extend to end of January 2020, (and if they did that), that gives Boris the best opportunity to force Corbyn into tabling that no confidence vote, then dissolving Parliament at the earliest opportunity, which would mean the GE being held either end of November/early December, but at a long shot he could go for a early January election, because I feel the public wouldn't accept a GE poll over the Christmas period and if my memory serves me correctly there never has been election held in December. I know we had two in '74,

(22-10-2019 20:52 )SecretAgent Wrote:  So the government lost the Programme Motion which lays out the timetable for Parliament to consider the Bill. They lost as had been expected because Parliament wants more time to review the Bill including considering amendments. As a result the Government have suspended discussion of the Bill in what seems like a temper tantrum.

The next 2 days discussing the Bill are now lost and there remains a danger that if the EU refuse an extension we crash out with no deal. Bear in mind the Government has had Conservative MP’s trying to persuade Poland & Hungary to vote against an extension.

What's the exact procedure for the EU to agree to a further extension? which member states would likely agree to it and who would reject it?

^ Can I assure you that I’m not your research analyst!

The info you ask for is readily available on all news channels

Kenneth Clarke is the one Tory who talks sense. Shame he's going.

He sorted brexit out in 3 minutes and poked fun at the sinistar little men at Downing St who are controlling Boris.

A few other snippets from yesterday

The SNP said that the cost of deal would be £1600 for everyone living in Scotland.

The Government continue to refuse to publish their financial analysis of the deal

The last time people could remember a Programme Motion being rejected was in 2012 on the House of Lords Reform Bill. The rebellion on that occasion was led by ....... Jacob Rees Mogg

And he's the leader of the house!!

Based on current polls what are the chances of Corbyn getting into No. 10?