Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??)

(12-12-2018 17:01 )circles_o_o_o Wrote:  Now the sex text MP Andrew Griffiths who was suspended, has been given back the whip so he can vote for Theresa this evening. That's not the sort of thing they'd do if they were confident of winning.

or they dont want rees mogg moaning it wasnt a fair ballot

Seems the ERG are saying if they get 80 votes against her its bad for her. That is a long way short of the 159 they need to oust her.

bet they wont get more than 75

So let me try and understand this.

The Tories, who have been fighting like cats and dogs over Europe for decades end up having a referendum that their leader of the day assumed he would win on the remain side only to suffer an embarrassing defeat after a referendum campaign on both sides that was low on facts and education while being seemingly high on speculative bullshit and ridiculous scaremongering.
The leader resigns in humiliation to be followed by another leader who ends up calling a general election earlier than scheduled thereby completely disregarding the fixed term parliament principle of her predecessor.
This leader assumes she will increase her parliamentary majority in the face of a seemingly dysfunctional and disunited parliamentary opposition only to end up losing the slim majority she already had.
This compromises the Brexit negotiations and a raft of cabinet ministers including 2 Brexit secretaries and a Foreign Secretary resign seemingly in the wholly unrealistic desire for a hard Brexit for which only a small section of Tory MPs seem to be in favour and which would have next to no chance of getting through a Commons vote.
The leader tries to adopt a compromise Brexit in the hope of appeasing both wings of her political party only to find that neither wing like the deal and it becomes obvious that her deal would get voted down. The leader kicks the can down the road by delaying the Commons vote presumably in the hope that if it is left until 21st January enough MPs will give in and vote for the deal on the basis it might be considered better than no deal.
This triggers a leadership vote of no confidence that is admitted by some Tory MPs to be politically self indulgent during which the leader seems to indicate she will not serve a full term in any event as PM.

Meanwhile through all of this the main opposition party leadership set a series of 6 wholly and seemingly deliberately unrealistic tests on which they judge the proposed Brexit deal while their parliamentary party seem as divided on what sort of Brexit they want at least in part because a lot of them were Remainers and never wanted Brexit in the first place.
Seemingly a deliberate act of playing politics by the opposition front bench in a remorseless effort to vote down the government no matter what it does.

Another opposition party uses the Brexit process as an excuse to demand Scottish independence again when it had already been rejected once in another referendum riddled with disingenuous, disreputable campaigning by both sides and littered with bogus claim, counter claim and endless scaremongering.

Another opposition party (Lib Dems) seem obviously and wholeheartedly intent on delaying and scuppering any sort of Brexit in the hope of another referendum.

Parliament seemingly utterly divided on the issue of the day with it seems no hope of any sort of Brexit likely to receive Commons approval.
The EU refuse to budge meanwhile stating only the deal agreed is on the table with no alernative available.
The only thing uniting each of the two biggest parliamentary parties being a determination not to let the other either hold on to power on one side or gain it on the other.
The underlying fear being that even if a general election were held tomorrow it might result in another hung parliament with still no clear and united path on Brexit.

Hmmmmmmmmm.
Is it any wonder faith in politicians is shot to pieces?

^ You only forgot the bit where every party claims to be standing for the will of the people when it is patently clear that those in the populus that want Brexit have 69 shades of different Brexit in mind as that which they voted for and there's still huge swathes of the country that don't want it at all.

Our membership of the EU, an irrelevance to most back then, was a decades old festering matter of party infighting for the Tories, who paniced by their irrational fears of a tin pot one policy party in UKIP (who hijacked the issue for their own ends), infected it onto the public at large like a swinger with a uncurable cold sore at a keys in a bowl night. Now we all have the estrangements of 'the Brexit debate' and have to deal with its consequences.

If she should lose we'll be well shot of 'That bloody difficult woman'

(11-12-2018 15:06 )lancealot790 Wrote:  Your statement shows how little understanding you have of what the european project actually is and its ultimate goal.

It's not about understanding the 'European Project'. It's about understanding people, which you clearly don't.

Apart from the reasons I've already given, it would be an absolute gift to the far right. Which is why they're stoking the conspiracy theories, and you're falling for it.

The real problem with brexit is that nobody wants to be responsible for the end result. Cameron resigned not because the referendum did not go the way he thought it would but because if he lumbered the country with a bad deal he would be remembered for it in the same way Chamberlain is remembered for 'peace in our time" so he jumped ship and left someone else to deal with the problem. Teresa May now has the same problem, she would love to be seen as the person responsible for leading us out of the EU and becoming a strong independent nation but in her heart she is a europhile and is doing her best to make things so bad we up staying.

Well certainly Rees Mogg does not want to be responsible as he finds it far easier to blame everyone else but refuses time and again to stand for PM himself. Spineless.

(12-12-2018 20:58 )The Silent Majority Wrote:  

(11-12-2018 15:06 )lancealot790 Wrote:  Your statement shows how little understanding you have of what the european project actually is and its ultimate goal.

It's not about understanding the 'European Project'. It's about understanding people, which you clearly don't.

Apart from the reasons I've already given, it would be an absolute gift to the far right. Which is why they're stoking the conspiracy theories, and you're falling for it.

I stand by my statement and if you think i,m naive enough to believe right wing propaganda and fake news then you are the one who does not understand people. The EU is not a consortium of nations looking to trade freely amongst themselves while adhering to a set of rules and regulations designed to make the playing field level for everyone. It is a sinister organisation hell bent on creating an empire ruled over by a handful of unelected elite. The EU has more in common with the old soviet union than its original common market aims.